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Why He Shared His Tech Salary on Linkedin (Zach Wilson R2) - KNN Ep. 113

Updated: Oct 1, 2022


Today, I had the pleasure of speaking with Zach Wilson, a Staff Data Engineer at Airbnb. Zach is best known for his radical transparency about his salary over his career and the other amazing content that he shares on LinkedIn. Today, we discuss his controversial posts, what money means to him in the scope of his career, and what he has learned from an incredibly fast career progression. We also get to meet his awesome dog!


Zach's Previous KNN Episode - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YTGIGN5wb0

Zach's LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/eczachly/

 

Transcription:

[00:00:00] Zach: 2015 was when I got my first data engineering job at Teradata. I started there making about $80,000 a year. I assumed by the time I was 30, right. I was gonna be making like double that. Right? Like, like 150-160. Right. And like, and I thought if I was doing that, I was gonna be in a very good, amazing situation.

And one of the things, I guess one of the motivators for me to share my salary history and share my compensation stuff is just to kind of like try to inspire people, right? And being like, you don't even realize what you're capable of cause I didn't. I didn't understand that.

Like I could do that without managing people or being a director or being a VP, right? Or like all of these things, like you can really just have really strong technical skills and if you have those skills, like, and you can get the good interviews and then you can a lot of times make a lot of money.

[00:01:00] Ken: This episode of Ken's Nearest Neighbors is powered by Z by HP. HP's high compute, workstation-grade line of products and solutions. Today, I have Zach Wilson in. Really excited to have Zach back on the podcast. We had an awesome chat last time and since then quite a bit has happened.

You know, so you've changed your title from Tech Lead to Staff Engineer.

[00:01:23] Zach: Oh yeah. I was wild. That was a crazy day.

[00:01:26] Ken: Yeah. You've had experiences of exposure on LinkedIn. You've taken some time off, you've taken some time on. You also came on the content trip that was sponsored by Bright Data. And we got to know each other significantly better, and we got to...

[00:01:43] Zach: Yeah, it's been amazing. This trip has been so amazing.

[00:01:44] Ken: I got to meet Lulu too, which is zach's amazing Husky who's giving us a yaw right now. And yeah, you know, I'm just really grateful that we're able to catch up and get, to get, to actually hang out and learn a lot more about each other.

[00:02:00] Zach: Yeah. This trip has been a very inspiring time, just like being able to be around all these creators who are, like, one of the things that it's really opened my eyes to is just like, what is even possible? Right? Like, and like what like, and the right way to do things and like equipment that I might need to buy and like all those kind of stuff to like really, you know, create content that's at like the highest level.

Right. Cuz definitely YouTube and video content is, is a very different ballgame from like a LinkedIn post. Right. And so, yeah, I'm excited. That's been, I've learned so much on this trip. It's been great.

[00:02:36] Ken: If you had one high level takeaway, what would, what would the big thing be?

[00:02:40] Zach: I think the high level takeaway is, like investing in systems, right.

And not doing everything yourself. That's, I think one of the biggest things I think that I have taken away from this is that like, there are gonna be elements of this that need to be delegated and elements that like you should not be spending your time on and like having someone else do that , I think that, like, that's a big one.

I think another big kind of takeaway that I've came across is just that like, you need to have like good equipment. Like, I, one, one of the assumptions that I had before going this trip is that, yeah, my iPhone should be good enough for shooting good video, good quality video.

But I think that like actually investing in a solid camera is something that now I'm a lot more open to for sure.

[00:03:27] Ken: Yeah. I think like you can get it done with a, with a cell phone. But there's something about like investing in your work and in yourself that I think pays dividends. With the quality of the work that comes out of it.

So it's like, yes, I bought a new camera, right? I spent XYZ dollars on it, but because I bought that new camera, I'm gonna feel obligated to use it and learn about it. And if I learn about the camera, then I'm gonna probably shoot better video. Right? Oh, definitely. And like that, that feedback loop is what makes the content grow over time is like, it's not just like, Oh, I'm gonna get it and like, just cause I have it, I'm gonna get better.

No, it's because you hold like accountability to it and to yourself in some sense. And I think that those mechanisms, it's like a system to encourage you to, to like work harder on things or do better on things,

[00:04:16] Zach: Which is Oh yeah. And there's that whole thing of like, I know like for me when I.

When I was transitioning from like graduating college to getting my first programming job, there was a day, it was like in a summer of 2014 where like, I, cuz before before program, before I got into the profession, like I did all my development on like a Windows machine, right? It was like, it was like a 600, $700 laptop that was Windows machine.

And and then I got my first MacBook Pro in 2014. And then that was like really inspiring. Cause when I got the computer, I was like, this is a fancy computer. I need to like, use this fancy computer to like, you know, build fancy stuff. And I think that this like investing in a camera and investing in the tools to like do the thing that you want to do so that you can play the role that you wanna play right?

Is super important and super important. And like, and I think that that's the other thing that I've noticed especially about this trip is that like, It's helping me like kind of develop that network of people who are doing similar things that I'm doing. Cuz it's definitely one of those things that has been interesting for me as a creator is like, cuz in some regards, like I feel like other people in my life have, like, they don't get it.

They don't get it. I definitely, you know, like I, you know, I had a girlfriend who didn't get it right and that known she's an X now, Right? And other things like that, Right? Which is, people in my life, they don't get content creation. Right. They don't understand. Right. And so like, it can kind of, at least for me, it's actually been in some regards kind of isolating in some aspects.

And I think that's one of the things that's been amazing about this trip is it's like everyone on this trip gets it. They understand what, why, why, why we do this, right? And they understand why, like, why we view this as important. And I think that's been freaking awesome.

[00:05:59] Ken: Yeah. That, that like understanding of like, Oh, like you don't have to do things a traditional way, like you can, you can do content, you can have fun with it.

I remember, I think I mentioned this maybe once before, but. I was dating a girl when I was just starting YouTube, right? And yeah, I was, I was working full time then. Yeah. And I was making pretty good money. That's, you know, it's over six figures a year. And I spent I think like a thousand dollars on a camera.

And, you know, she's like, you know, I can't, Why would you waste money like that? This is just a hobby or the stuff. And you know, I bought it cause I hit a thousand YouTube subscribers to me, which was like a massive milestone. I was like, Okay, that means it's serious, whatever it is.

[00:06:40] Zach: So it's like a small town.

[00:06:41] Ken: Exactly. For sure. And it's like, Okay, well, you know, that was obviously things didn't end up working out . Yeah, for sure. I mean, things worked out great for me, but especially with YouTube. Yeah. camera. Right.

[00:06:53] Zach: But, but yeah, you found out YouTube is the one

[00:06:55] Ken: Exactly. But there's something so special about having a, a network, a group of people around you that are enabling your goals and not detracting from them.

I think that that's something that has been. The biggest change in my life in the last like two years has been, there's so many more people now in my life that I'm like, Hey I want to do this. They're like, Yeah, you can do that. That's incredible. You should try it out. And there's so many less people that are like, Oh, what if this happens?

What if this happens? It could all go wrong. And you know, of course you want like pushback. If, if I have a stupid idea, I want people to, to like poke holes in it. But it's never poking holes in like a little never work. It's like, it could work if you tried it this way. Or maybe you should rethink it this way.

There's this dialogue around it. Yeah. And that to me is the type of ecosystem that you want to create in your life.

[00:07:54] Zach: Oh yeah. Like, cuz if you, like I definitely noticed that was something that was, had a big change in my life. Like when I first moved outta Utah back in 2016, like I definitely felt like there was such a.

Even, even when I was like interviewing for jobs, cuz I moved to Washington DC and I got this job at Research Innovations and like when I got that job, like there was so much like pushback in in Utah for everyone in my life who was like, just stay in Utah. Don't, don't, don't do this. Like, it's not gonna be, it's not gonna be safe.

Is it safe in Washington DC I heard people get murdered in Washington, DC Right? Like in the, like all sorts of other things like that. Right. All sorts of. You know, kind of fear based things and they're trying to like project their own fear onto you to like, make you believe what they believe. Right.

And like when that's not, like, it doesn't help. Right. It really like, Yeah. I totally get you on that. Like the, it's important to not just have like be surrounded by people who are like, Yes, yes, yes. Can you can be an astronaut. Yes. Ken, you can go to the moon. Right. And like, I mean, you want him to tell you how it is like, and be supportive for the most part.

Right. Cuz it's like, most of the time if you're asking for feedback on something, it's probably something that you want to do. Right. But like, and that's where it's like kind of guiding and maybe adding more nuance and flavor is good. But like, if you're just like, that's the dumbest idea I've ever heard.

Or like, you know, just other things that are just like mostly just a put down. They're not like adding any crystalling to it or anything. That's like making it more like, Oh yeah, that's something I hadn't thought about. Right. And you know.

[00:09:31] Ken: You know, you just talking through that gave me this sort of like light bulb and this, this nuance. That I want to add here is that I think the way things are now, the ecosystem is created is that everyone I'm talking to, a lot of the people that I'm talking to when I'm proposing these ideas, they understand it, right? They get it and they support it from a place of like understanding and wanting to support.

Probably, you know, a lot of times wanting to be a part of it. You have a different type of, where you're like friends or your significant other, like, you know, some people's parents also that are like, we want you to be successful, we want you to be happy. We support you in whatever you do, but we don't necessarily get it.

And then there's that other group where it's like, we don't get it and because we don't get. , we don't think you should do it. It's scary

[00:10:18] Zach: or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Or it's weird. Or you're doing something that like is dumb or risky or like they, they and they Yeah. Those are the, those are, that's a very clean delineation of like all the different buckets of things.

Right. And trying to see how all those things work together and Yeah. it's very challenging cuz I know for a lot of people out there that's like, if they have a dream that's more unconventional or they have a dream that's a little bit different like that, like there's their parents are. Very not supportive of it.

Right? Cause they, they, they actually, their parents end up being in that, in that third bucket of like being like, No, like your dream is dumb. Your dream is stupid. Like, go and go and get a, get a safe job or whatever. Right? And I think that can be, that can be very challenging, right? And like, that's where trying to surround yourself with friends who, like, cuz that's, you know, you can't really, you don't get to pick your parents, right?

Your parents who are your parents are, Right. That's just not, that's not in the cards. You don't get to pick them, but you do get to pick your friends, Right? And that's one of the things that I think is, that's the area of your life that, where you can still get that support, right. Even if like, other areas of your life are unsupportive.

[00:11:22] Ken: So, you know, we talk about friends, you're talking about support. We have a lot of friends on LinkedIn. Oh yeah. Right? They're in some sense, digital friends. What's the difference between having friends on a digital medium and actually coming to something like this where you're around other people and you're interacting?

[00:11:40] Zach: Oh yeah. it's very, it's very, there's a very big difference, right? Like, cuz I guess like for a lot of stuff on LinkedIn that is, is and is one of the pieces that kind of has felt kind of more isolating about it, right? Is that like, I don't know. I would say like, most of the people that I interact with on LinkedIn, like they want to ask me like a question, right?

They want to ask me for like, career advice. They want to ask me about, like, you know, something they wanna ask me about a data pipeline or whatever. Right? And and I, and I, and I love teaching people and I love like, creating stuff and everything and that's where like, it's been a little bit trickier to like, kind of build friendships from that, right?

Cause it always feels like it's coming from like a place of like, almost like mentorship and like that's a to people. Yeah. Yeah. And then, It's a, it's a very hard way to like, start off a friendship is like with that right sim I like actually find it similar to like, there's very egregious examples of this on LinkedIn, right?

Where people will, they connect with you and then they're immediately like, Hey Zach, can you refer me to Airbnb? Like, and like we can, I have not said a word to this person. And then they just go immediately for the ask, right? And it's like, that's like, I've always wondered, like, does that ever work for anybody?

Like, I don't know. It's just really weird that like, people just like, immediately they don't wanna try to establish rapport, like actually like build a, a relationship with someone. They're just like, nah, like I just need you to, you know, do this thing for me so I can get an interview or whatever.

Right. And I don't know, like I, but the, an event like this is really different cuz one of the things I really like about this is like, one, it's been. , like, because of, it's the fact that it's like multiple days. Like I get to see people in a bunch of different states as well. Right? It's like I get to see, like, I get to see y'all like when you're sleepy and when you're hungry and like when you're, when you just had your coffee or like, you know, you get to see, you get to see this like kind of high fidelity image of a person, Right?

Whereas like, you know, most of my stuff on LinkedIn is like, Okay, I'll go for a meetup and I meet someone for like an hour or two, but like, I get like one state of that person, Right? As opposed to like seeing a higher number of states of people. Right. Which it makes it, you feel closer to people in that way, Right?

When you can see like how they are in more states. And so I think that's one of the things that's been really cool is like being able to like, just make a lot of cool friends and learn a lot from people. Like,

[00:14:00] Ken: I couldn't agree more. I didn't think of it in terms of states, but I thought of it in terms of like the time and the types of conversations you have. Right? In that one hour that you described you're gonna talk about sort of the most pressing things. You're gonna say, Oh, I made, I wanna make sure, you know, I have Zach for an hour, I wanna make sure I talk to him about this, about this.

And there isn't just like, sort of BS conversation that talks about your life and your, and your history and you're like aspirations and just sort of these random things that make people inherently human. Yeah. And I think that to me, that's sort of the meat of this is we get to know each other so much better than those just like sort of bite size interactions.

We get, we get to, you get a more encompassing type of of conversation and through those you start to figure out how you can, like, create value for other people in their life and how other people can create value for you in your life. And I think that that's sort, sort of what the crux of a lot of this is, is that

you know, One of, one of the things you describe is like a lot of the reactions or the interactions on LinkedIn, on YouTube is one direction, right? Yeah. And I would like to think that in, in these types of meetups, everyone can get value from each other. And you know, whether it's just like hanging out hilu, Oh, come in the frame just a little

[00:15:21] Zach: bit.

Watch there, there shoes, watch computer. Oh no. I basically don, I,

[00:15:29] Ken: Oh yeah, yeah. But you know, it, it's about sort of these mutually beneficial relationships or these these like learning relationships that, that I really value. And you know, some people think it's like a bit. A bit harsh to talk about.

Oh, like it, it's like they think that thing of relationship is transactional, right? But that's not how I view it. It's like we're all here because like it's fun to create value for other people. That's what we do with all our content. And if we could do that with our friends Yeah. That's like an added benefit.

It is

[00:15:59] Zach: definitely. For sure. Like we can broadcast our lives, dude, . Yeah, exactly.

[00:16:04] Ken: And you know, like obviously you mentioned broadcasting our lives that can also like, sort of, so, sort of bite us sometimes too. Right? I mean, you, you've had a couple, a couple LinkedIn posts this year that have gotten very popular.

Oh yeah, for sure. With popularity there comes polarity.

[00:16:22] Zach: Yeah. And just like overwhelmed too, like, like it's one of those things like, you know, with humans, like we're our genetic. Are for, we can remember 150 people, right? That's like the number of people that, like, that's the village mentality, right? That's like, so humans are really only ever supposed to process that number of humans.

Like that's like the, the upper end, right? And then like, when you have these things like social media, like, Oh, 150. Okay, how about 5 million? And it's like you, cuz it's like when you try to even imagine 5 million people, like you can't, like, it's just, it's too many people, right? it's a, it's such a, such a vast number that your brain can't even really grapple with it.

And I think that that's, I think that's one of the things that's tricky about it because I also like. You want to engage, Right? Because like a lot of people will like, because once something's shown to 5 million people, even if like the number of like jerks and assholes in the world is like 0.01%, there's gonna be like, wow, no 200 of 'em on your post now just because of like 5 million times.

That is still a big number. Right? And and I, and it's one of those things that like, is interesting cuz it's like, I wanna go viral, but I also kind of don't. Right? Like , like, because it's just, there's, it's so much, it's so overwhelming when it happens. Like, it's interesting

[00:17:48] Ken: it, it's funny that you mention that because there's this sort of vocal minority that you see as someone who gets like a lot of volume as a content creator, right?

Where it's, those, those 200 assholes are more vocal than the 200 nicest people. Right? And they're gonna say some rough stuff. Hi, watch the chords, please. Oh not, don't, please don't look my feet again. But yeah, I think that that's, that's like something that I still definitely struggle with is you get mean comments, you get something that's rough and Yeah.

And you know, it's like if you look at the ratio of likes to dislike some my videos, it's like, Okay, like 99% of people yeah, enjoy this

[00:18:31] Zach: and didn't have any issue. Did you hang on to that one guy's? The one guy said, Right. Because it's just, that's one of the things that's interesting about brains, Like, like is that like brains aren't wired to make us happy, right?

Brains are wired to keep us alive. Right? So like if you have 99% of people who are like really saying good things to you, your brain like doesn't even register it sometimes because it doesn't, doesn't recognize it as a threat. Right. And so like, if it's a threat, then like, that's why you can kind of fixate on that 1% of like negativity, right?

Cuz it's, it feels more threatening. It feels like it's like encroaching on you. Right? Exactly. and it sucks because it's like, . You know, if you look just did the data science and the mathematics and the statistics on it, then like obviously if you just look at it purely rationally right? Then, like it's silly to focus on that.

Right. , but like Yeah, brains are weird. They're really weird.

[00:19:25] Ken: Oh, you know, it's the common trope that like bad news is so much more incendiary or so much more popular than good news. Is cuz playing on our fears is what we remember. You know, it like, Oh, this, this berry tasted good is a little less important because you need a lot more berries.

Yeah. Or you can experiment and search for berries versus this, this berry will kill you. Right? Like...

[00:19:50] Zach: Which one is more, or like a tiger or like, you know, if you have like an interaction with a tiger or something like that, you were like, yeah, I need to not interact with that. Like Yeah, that's, you can, And like it's interesting too cuz like one of the other things that is like I've found interesting about like just virality in general that's kind of different is that like it.

Makes your content go towards like, not your niche, right? So there's gonna be just like, you're gonna get very different people as well. So like, it's not even just that it's 1% of like people who, who are saying negative things a lot of times. Like it's 1% of people that like, would never buy anything from you.

1% of people who would never, you know, cheer you on anyway. Right? And it's like, it's not like it's even someone who you could like turn, turn around, right? And and I think that that's like, another thing that's interesting about going viral is that like your content gets shown to a lot of people who like, like aren't your audience, right?

and that's, and that's I guess that's one of the parts about going viral that I wish like LinkedIn was better about where it's like, Okay, like we want this to go viral, but just, just keep showing it to like just data engineers or just data people, but just show it to like all of them. Right? And like, instead of like, just show it to like, I don't know, just random people and their friends or whatever.

And the network kind of branches out that way. Like, and like, I think if that would happen, I think that posts like good, good viral content would actually really create a lot more like comment threads and discussion because like there wouldn't be as much like just PO polarizing, like attacks and stuff like that, right?

They'd be more of like people wanting to engage in the discussion and talking about the nuance. I've had that sometimes on LinkedIn as as well, right? Where like I actually do get these really long comment threads that and that kind of virality. I really like that and, and because it's like, Okay, I know that this discussion is providing a lot of value to people and so.

And it was interesting cuz like earlier on in my like journey on LinkedIn, I was like, I was just too focused on engagement and just getting likes and views and shares and stuff like that. And like, especially, I know like, like last October, like there was a bunch of like posts I made that were not really true to my brand, but I knew if I said them that like I would probably get more views.

Right. And and I was just, at that time I was also kind of experimenting with like where I wanted to take my brand. Right. And I, and I realized that like, yeah, I don't want to be the like like say like wild thing, say shocking wild thing brand, Right? Even though it does get views and you can go viral and it can get shared a lot.

Like it's, I don't know, it's that kind of stuff is where. I'm like, Yeah, I can't do that. I need to be more of like an educator, right.

[00:22:40] Ken: Well, you know, something. I think that was both of those things. Educating and in some sense shocking. You shared a lot of your salary information this year. And I was wondering what your, Well, it says it in the post, what your, what your process is and why you shared that, But I'm wondering if you could articulate that a little bit more.

[00:22:56] Zach: Oh yeah, for sure. Like I think for me, one of the things that was, has been interesting about my journey in tech is that like when I look back on my journey, like back in like 2015, right?

2015 was when I got my first data engineering job at Teradata. I started there making about $80,000 a year. I assume by the time I was 30, right. I was gonna be making like double that. Right? Like, like 150-160. Right. And like, and I thought if I was doing that, I was gonna be in a very, very good, amazing situation.

And one of the things, I guess one of the motivators for me to share my salary history and share my compensation stuff is just to kind of like try to inspire people, Right? And being like, you don't even realize what you're capable of. Cause I didn't, I didn't, Right. I didn't understand, I didn't understand that.

Like, I could do that without managing people or being a director or being a vp, right? Or like all of these things, like you can really just have really strong technical skills and if you have those skills, like, and you can get the good interviews and then you can a lot of times make a lot of money.

And like, and I think that it's one of those things that, like that I'd say that was the primary motivator. I think the other motivator for me was more around just like, I saw a trend, right? Actually, I saw like two Instagram reels of other people sharing their salary history and like, and both of 'em were insane.

Like the, the, the reach on all of 'em was like really crazy. One of 'em had like half a million likes or something like that. I was like, what? Like what is going on here? And I realized, I was like, I think we're at a cultural moment right now where like people are sick of like salary, trans, you know, salary, lack of transparency and salary.

Right. You know, there's, there's kind of this there's like this re recurring meme on LinkedIn, Right. Which is like like if someone asks a poll in a poll, like should the salary be in the job description? It's always like 99% say yes. Right? It's always like, it's insane. Like how in agreement people on LinkedIn are about that.

Right. About more transparency with pay, more transparency with compensation and like negotiation too, cuz like negotiation, That was another thing that I knew I was going to do as a follow up was Was having a conversation on just like how to negotiate, how to ask for more mo how to ask for more money, how to like get what you're worth when you do get an offer.

Right. And stuff like that as well. Right. Cause you know, it's also kind of weird times right now, Right. Where it's like inflation's happening. Right. People are getting laid off. Right. and a lot of the stuff's happening where people are feeling less financially secured now than six months ago.

Right. And like, I think that, that, that was kind of another motivator for me is like, my people shouldn't t try to negotiate more. Cause that's how, that's how you secure your happiness, you know? And also how you secure the bag. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[00:25:54] Ken: Yeah. You know, I think that that's, it's important because salary seems to be so taboo a lot of the time.

And you know, whether you want to talk about your salary or not. Inevitably want to get the best opportunities for yourself as you can. Right? So it's this weird algorithm where you wanna know as much salary information as possible, and a lot of people don't wanna share. And like, you also don't wanna share your salary information at all.

Right. And, you know, why, why don't we wanna share our salary information is the good question. Yeah. And it's like, Oh, cuz you don't want to find out that the guy next to is making more money than you are for doing the same job. Right? Like, you want to head yourself away from that, or you don't, you don't wanna feel like, Oh, I just got this job.

It's amazing, all this stuff. And then you find out that another job that you probably could have gotten, pays $30,000 more or whatever it might be. And if we do have more transparency, kind of all those things don't matter, right? Yeah. Right. You would know. Like, it's all out there.

Yeah. and that to me is what, what the crazy thing is it's only taboo. because it, it, it be because of like the ecosystem that we've created. If we created a better, more transparent ecosystem, it wouldn't be taboo All. Mm.

[00:27:10] Zach: I think there's some other kind of interesting intersections with culture there though, cuz I think one of the other things about salary being taboo is that like, I really believe this at least about American culture is that like your salary is kind of equated with like your worth, right?

And that's like, and I think that's one of the things that can make it, like, that's why it's an un it's an uncomfortable conversational a lot of the times is because you have this kind of underlying pretext about any salary conversation where like, if you say, Hey, I make more money than you, you're saying, Hey, I'm worth more than you.

Which is like, not even true. Like, I mean at least from like, from like a human worth perspective, we're all equal, right? That's like, that's not even, that's like a, that's, it's like a weird thing cuz it's like, that's one of the things I think has always been so weird about like being American, right? Is that like on one side we're like, We accept everyone.

We're the melting pot. Like we don't care what race you are, what gender you are, if you're gay, straight, whatever. Right. We accept you when we're equal. Right. But then on this other side, when we're like trying to talk about money and trying to talk about like compensation and stuff like that, like we're like different.

Right. And it's like, it's like a different, it's like it's, it seems like kind of antithetical to a lot of the other kind of notions that America like kind of throws out there. Right? Yeah.

[00:28:27] Ken: I mean that's something even since I graduated high school, I've struggled with personally is that I grew up in Washington, DC ,right. And Washington DC in my opinion, kind of has a culture of. , like the first question people ask is, what do you do? Right? Oh, yeah. And then they judge you based on that. Like, Oh, Oh, la he, Oh, he's an investment maker. I probably could, could be friends with him, whatever. It's you know? Oh, for sure.

and that drives me insane because I hate playing by those, Like, I hate playing that game. Like, I don't, I don't want to talk about, like, I wanna get to know people. What they do is important. If it's interesting to me. Yeah. It's like, Oh, if someone's a data scientist, like I know I'll probably have a lot to talk them with. Talk about them with, but I care a lot more about other things.

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Within my, you know, within where I grew up. Like your, your culture, your, your job was really deeply tied to your, to who you are and your value in society. And I never wanted to play that game. I was always interested in entrepreneurship. I was always interested in doing different things. And I would hope that I could break free of that game these days.

But I realized now that people, yes, they care about like your profession or how much money you make, but they also care about your quality of life. So this was a really refreshing thing to me is that, you know, if I go home, a lot of my friends are like, Oh, you. You can travel when you want. You, you have a lot of these freedoms.

Like, it must be really nice. Like, I wish I could do that. Oh yeah. And I'm like, you kind of can, you know? Oh yeah. You just have to be willing to take the risk that...

[00:30:34] Zach: That was something like when I was like, that just really amazed me about talking with Alex, right? Where he is, like, he's like, Dude, I'm an analytics manager. I have three kids and I'm a YouTuber. And I'm just like, Dude, yeah, you, you have it made, man like, holy crap. That's amazing. This is like inspiring to be around people who like, have that stuff figured out, you know? And like like yeah, that quality of life stuff of like, Okay, this, like, and, and that's, I really hope that like people can get further along in that journey a little bit cuz it's like sometimes I wonder about my own contribution to this.

And with the, with the compensation post, it's one. I've gone back and forth a bit about, right? Because there's one side of me that's like, you know, I know there's a lot of people in software and data who, like, they really wanna work at like Facebook or fang or any of the big tech companies, right? And like, if we're talking about like the actual numbers and data there, like most of them aren't for going to, Right.

You know, like 90, probably 95 ish percent are probably not gonna do it. Right? it's more significantly fewer people actually get the FANG than the number of software engineers total. Right. And so like, but it's like, it's one of those things where I really wish that in those places that like, there was more like respect for just like technical excellence and technical skill than like, yeah, I have the goo, I have the Google bumper sticker on my resume, so respect me.

Right? like, and I don't, I don't know. it's, Society's peculiar in that way. Right. and I guess like for me, that's where this, like this post, I've kind of felt like I might have been contributing more to that as well. Right. Because I did work at Facebook, I did work in Netflix. I'm like, this is that kind of the envy component to it or whatever that like, I know is like, that's why it's kind of this dual edge sword.

And that's why that like envy is such a, an, an, an interesting human emotion, right? and it's one of those things where like, I really hope that people have more of this like self-awareness, right? About quality of life, right. And being like, Hey, I'm happiest under these circumstances. Right? And like a lot of times that might not be like working your face off at Facebook, right.

[00:32:45] Ken: Okay. Well, you know something that's been very evident, you know, since I've spent more time with you. Is yes, you wanna make a good income. Right? That's something that is obviously a priority for you, is like you're trying to increase total compensation, right? But it's not like dele, right?

No. You want to increase total compensation. At least in the short, medium term, that's what buys you a lot of freedom to like pursue other things like happiness. Content, whatever you'd like to pursue. Right? Yeah. And I think that a lot of people are chasing these things. I mean, there's nothing wrong with, with chasing income, right?

But I think that there's like a fundamental difference between chasing like the titles and the advancement because like, because you want them in and of themselves or because it's part of this like grander scheme of like achievement in life that's progressing towards happiness, right?

[00:33:41] Zach: Oh yeah. And like, and honestly like, I feel that that was like, that was something that changed in my mind over the last couple years where like, I. Like, I think that that was one of the things, especially when I was working at Netflix, when I was working there and kind of chasing more compensation and like kind of, and doing that of like, I was really kind of this, I had this, I talk with my therapist about this sometimes where it's like I had this kind of notion of like, productivity equals worth, right?

And then like, and it's like, or compensation equals worth, and it's like chasing these things. And then it's like, I use that as like, I'm a shield for like self-esteem. And it's like, see, like I'm a good person. See how much money I make, Right? And it's like that's, and what happened for me in that situation was that like, I was just like kind of lying to myself so deeply in some, in that situation where like, that was like the only thing I could think about, right?

And I like, I ended up having a lot of like, mental health problems and I was like, Dude, I can't keep doing this. I can't, like, I can't keep doing this to myself. I have to like, I have to rediscover myself. I have to start over. I can't just like keep chasing the bag, keep chasing the money and just like, only do that.

Right. I have to like do other things as well. Right. and that's where like, and then I took that year off, tried to discover myself, you know, Covid happened. All this stuff happened. Like 2020 was a crazy year. And then I feel like when I started at Airbnb, I was like, I'm gonna do better this time. I'm not going to just be focused on that.

Right. And that's where LinkedIn has been really helpful in keeping me more grounded and not being like, just like, No, I must get promoted in two years. I have to get more money. I gotta get greatly exceed expectations or whatever. Right. I have like, just like get caught getting caught in like the hamster wheel of like, you know, how these corporate jobs, you know, have you have, you go

[00:35:31] Ken: Yeah. Well, you know, I think that that's a trap that technical people can fall into really easily. And that's because like money. Highly quantifiable. Right? It's something we can evaluate very clearly. Happiness is super opaque. Right? Or freedom is, is relatively opaque. Like freedom is measured in how many PTO days you get, right?

And you know, if, like, it can be a heuristic, it's easy to measure things that way. But it isn't an end goal. Like, that's, that's like your fear. Fear of looking yourself in the mirror to say, Okay, well I'm gonna look at these things, I'm gonna evaluate it on that because I don't have the time. I have to work and increase this number rather think about this.

[00:36:12] Zach: Yeah. It, it's like money line go up, happy. Right. Or whatever. Right. It's like very like, where it's like, and I realize I needed to take a more multifaceted approach to it. Right. And one of the things for me, Right that. Something I've realized that has met a game changer is that like, I really like, so I am someone who has always had a really hard time sleeping in my life.

Just like I'm, I have a lot of energy. It's hard to sleep and like I have to follow a pretty strict routine a lot of the time to just even go to bed. And so, but one of my indicators that is, again, quantifiable, but like, is very good at recognizing when I'm like overdoing it when I'm like working too hard or I'm pushing myself too hard and I'm like, not caring about my body or my health is like how much I'm sleeping, right?

And if I'm, And it's. It's not that I can't have a night or two of bad sleep. My goal is I want four, at least four nights a week where I get eight hours. Right. And that's like, kind of like my threshold, right? And if I have like a week where I'm not doing that, like I know that like it's, it correlates pretty much always that, that means that there's something in my life that is like too stressful and like it's not, And it's usually something that's like self-inflicted, right?

Cuz I'm just working too hard and I'm not, I'm not setting the right boundaries. I'm not saying no, I'm not reprioritizing. Right. Stuff like that. That, and that's been really cool to like have another indicator that's like, not just like money, it's like okay, there's, And that's why Fitbit's awesome, right?

Fitbit's really cool cuz it can give you the signals from your body order ring or a ring or a ring's also. Yeah. That one's also really good. So, yeah.

[00:37:47] Ken: So, so what do you do when things get too stressful? And we've, we've talked, you know, there are a couple linking posts where you're like, They blew up. Like, you know, people are being not nice...

[00:37:58] Zach: And it's like, I mean, Yeah. and they would get overwhelming. And then like, there's a couple things like I like to try to reset. So there's definitely been times, and this is something that I've tried, had to like, develop over the last while has, like LinkedIn has gotten more outta hand and gotten even crazier.

And it's just, it, it just keeps growing and crazier and crazier. It's awesome. But like it can be a lot sometimes. Right? And so like in May when that happened, right? I know. I was like, I know I was like third week of May, I was like so spent, cuz I ended up beginning, I had. Three, I had three posts that that broke, three mill each in May.

And I was like, I can't, Like when, when that third one went viral, I was like, No, make it stop. Make the algorithm stop. I don't, I don't even want, I don't even want these views. Like, I don't know. It was, it was, it was a lot. And then It was like, I gotta take a break. I ended up taking PTO and like from Airbnb and not being on LinkedIn is kind of resetting.

And what I like to do a lot of times with resetting is I like to go to nature and just like experience nature and just be out there as like a human and kind of like connect to like my inner monkey a little bit and be like, I'm, I don't just need to look at a screen every day, right? I am like, I'm a mammal right on this planet, on this, on this rock.

Right. And like, just kind of connecting more with like more of like my primal self, I guess, in some ways. Right. And I know that that's a big thing that helps. Other things that I recognize that help a lot as well is just like Like my diet usually ends up like getting weird as well when I get stressed out.

Right? Where like, I will just like not eat like until dinner time. Sometimes, like I'll just like read like I'll just skip a lot of food and like I'm not eating enough and that it causes like an gnarly like downward spiral, right? Cuz then I have more stress and that kind of keeps it going, keeps cycle going.

And so that's like other things is like, make sure I'm eating three meals a day, take breaks, right? Go to nature, make sure I'm, you know, hugging Lulu, because Lulu definitely helps a lot as well. Cuz like she, she's, cuz she's just always in that zone, right? Where it's like when I have to, I have to like go outside and be like, I have to drive for 45 minutes out of SF to just get the same feeling that Lulu has all the time. It's pretty cool.

[00:40:12] Ken: Yeah. You know, I love that you sort of have, have a system for dealing when things get overwhelming. I think a lot of the times we just try not like, like we try so hard to not let things get overwhelming and we work hard towards that, that we forget that they do and then when it happens, we like freak out and we, we crash.

Oh yeah. And you know, I've had things get overwhelming enough many times that you have to create protocols for yourself. You have to like, go to certain places. You have to have things that are, are very structured. You know, this trip I even learned something new and so, you know, I spent a lot of time with with Ben Taylor.

This trip I spent a lot of time with you. And something that that I realize that you guys do, which I think is really fascinating, is like when you get uncomfortable, you can like move, you can dance, there's like a physical. Release of anxiety or of emotion. Definitely. And that's something that I never do right when I get anxious and

you know, for some reason now, whenever I drink coffee in the morning I just get like this paralyzing anxiety at night. Yeah. And It doesn't happen with like, when I do anything else. Yeah, right. Like sometimes you, like I get that anxious feeling something's like really going wrong. Fortunately I haven't felt that in a long time.

But coffee just makes me do that. And I just sit there and I'm just like, Yeah. Frozen, you know, I start drinking coffee again this trip because I need you to be up. And just like being active, like dancing around my room, like really stupid subject, like listen to music, Like, she's like physically releasing the energy.

Is something that I hadn't. Thought of, Oh yeah, Oh, I'm anxious. Why would I, why would I like dance? Why would I just do these things? But it was like very helpful and it's something, you know, I'm gonna integrate into a lot of my stuff going forward.

[00:41:56] Zach: Oh yeah. Move movement is so, move movement is so therapeutic.

Like both, like movement that really gets your heart running. Like that's why, I mean, I always try to run most days to just, cuz it just like, it takes all that anxious, buzzing energy that's like, just in my head all the time and like it just shuts it up. Right. And it makes me feel, and I'm like, Oh good, I can, I'll be able to sleep so well.

And that's a big thing as well. Yeah. I, that was, I definitely noticed that about Ben as well. I was like, Dude, me and Ben are like the same person dude. I honestly thought I was like, I honestly feel like Ben is who I am gonna be in like 25 years or something like that.

[00:42:34] Ken: He's only got you about like 10 years, don't, don't tell him that. .

[00:42:45] Zach: Yeah. That was messed up like...

[00:42:50] Ken: Oh, Ben, if you're out there. That's just hilarious. I figure like, I'll be like Ben Taylor and like maybe 104 years. Now he just has 104 years worth of wisdom.

[00:43:04] Zach: Yes. Yeah. That's what it is.

[00:43:06] Ken: Yeah. I gotta get Ben back on the, on the podcast after all the, all the data robots off.

[00:43:10] Zach: Oh, for sure. Yeah. That's such a story, right?

[00:43:15] Ken: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Oh my goodness. So, you know, I'm interested in, in kind of changing gears a little bit. We, we obviously had this get together you participated in a data hack. You participated, and when you were involved in, in everything, a lot of forms, whatever it was, what, what was your your favorite thing that we did.

[00:43:37] Zach: That's a good one. Like, so I think there was a couple that I really liked that were kind of different, right? So like, I really, I did really like the hot tub live stream. I thought that was like, because it was just like, and it's on Shan's channel if, Yeah. Yeah, definitely check that out.

Like, it's great . It's like, It was almost like two hours too. It's a little

[00:43:55] Ken: lothan. Just lost subscribers too.

[00:43:56] Zach: Yeah, it's a, yeah, we, like, he, we thought we were gonna get him like 500 and it was like minus 10 or something like that. But like that was really fun. I also really liked just the, the iron analyst thing.

That was interesting. I haven't done something like that in a very long time. Like, like I haven't done like a hackathon or any like, kind of like challenge like that. Like since like, I don't know, like 2018, that's been for like four years or something like that. So that was fun. Just like kind of busting out the, busting out the old code.

Right. I think that was cool. And. Those. I would say those are the, the kind of the events that really kind of stood out to me of the stuff. But I also really like the the live streams that we did on, like where, when we were sitting on the couches and just like, you know, talking about stuff and like, those, those are really cool.

And those helped me grow so much too. I, like, I gain like almost 400 subscribers on this, on this trip and like, I didn't even post any content. Like, I didn't, like I didn't do any promotion. It was just, it was all because of like the other people's creators. And then those people get point back to my channel and then they subscribe to me. It's pretty cool.

[00:45:02] Ken: I think that that's something really special about this place is that it doesn't cost me anything to like, share someone else's content. If anything it, it makes the whole ecosystem better. Oh yeah. And it makes it more likely that other people are gonna watch my content because it's like, You know, even if Ken doesn't know about something

you know, let's take the podcast. He's gonna bring in someone who's really knowledgeable in this area that can talk about it. Oh yeah. Right. And then I can follow that person and learn more about this area, like if I watch Ken more like, Oh, who, who, who knows what other interesting people he'll reference that are specifically relevant to the things that I'm interested in.

Oh, yeah. You know, people still do only have a certain amount of time in a, in a day, but I'm not gonna be super concerned if you know, if my content isn't being consumed like as much. If it means like it's. That people are consuming, like relevant content more as a whole.

[00:45:59] Zach: Yeah. Right. Definitely, definitely.

And like that, like that's definitely one of the things that I've noticed that has helped like my like kind of LinkedIn journey over the last while because like one of the things that's kind of interesting now on LinkedIn is that like I've generated this kind of like virtuous goodwill cycle. So I, one of my strategies is so four, four times a month I do it almost exactly like once a week.

I will make a post that I'm like, Hey, follow these people, right? I just make a shout out post of like, Yeah. And I usually have like three to five names in the list of people who I like wanna follow or who I want people to follow. And. That those, those like I know that just those posts themselves are like ridiculously powerful.

Like, like sometimes I'll do that and then people, like, I've had some people go from like 5k to like 12 K, like in like a couple days. And I'm like, that's crazy. That's freaking nuts. And it's like, but that's one of the things that's cool about being like a creator with a pretty big audience, is that you can inspire other creators.

You can play God, no, you can play God. You can decide who's famous on LinkedIn. You're like and like, But one of the things that's so cool about this though is that like, now the cycle has just gotten so insane where like, every day I'm on LinkedIn, there's gonna be probably two or three posts of people tagging me, like being like, Thanks for supporting me.

Or like, Thanks for like your content. Or like, and like, and they, but it's cool because they actually make a post about it, which then like gets me more followers. So like, even if I'm like not creating content now, like I and I tested this out cuz I didn't, I, for two weeks in July, I didn. Make any content really.

I made, I think, I think I made like two posts for two weeks in July. And in those, in, in those two weeks, I still got like, like 3000 followers. Right? And it was mostly from like these, like the network effect of like other people's posts then point back to me and then people follow me because of their reference.

and, and that's one of the things that is like really important. I think that's one of the things that's really important about being a creator in general is that like a lot of people think that, like being a YouTuber, being a creator and everything is about like having a really good personality and like making good content and like that's the idea, right?

But it's like, For me at least, the thing that I'm the most attracted to about being a creator is not that it's about building community. It's about building building up a lot of people. Like, you know, it's the whole thing of like, make sure that like, when you're successful that you bring people along the ride, right?

Because cuz that's, you can change a lot of lives that way and that's how you can really have a really outsized impact. Right. And you're not just like focusing on creating stuff for yourself, but like creating stuff for a community. For sure. Yeah.

[00:48:47] Ken: You know, something that has stuck with me for a long time is like, your upside is only limited by the amount of value that you can create for other people.

Yeah. Right? Like you think about, I mean, at least for me in terms of like, in terms of happiness, in terms of even like finances, like the amount that I can, can like, you know, enjoy or the amount that I can actually earn. It's purely dictated on how much value I can create for other people. Right?

And there's different ways to create value. Like this trip creates value and it helps create other, other, you know, helps other creators grow. It helps people learn. It helps like everyone define their own style. Yeah. And that inevitably in some way helps me too, because if these other people are, are, are growing and doing really great things.

Yeah. At least help part of that process, I'm helping That comes back to at least in Goodwill. Right? Well, well,

[00:49:43] Zach: and then you have podcast episodes cuz it's like, you know, if I get to a million followers then this podcast episode is gonna be like, Oh wow, Zach's on this podcast then like Yeah. Yeah. And then you're gonna get more views from that.

Right, Exactly. Like you want, you wanna like encourage and inspire people. Right. And like it's really, it's really cool how those things can kind of like all go together. I think that's one of the things that is interesting and kind of challenging about the economy in some regards, right? Is cuz one of the things that's been, I felt very fortunate about my time on LinkedIn is that like, I really haven't monetized that much on LinkedIn.

Right. And like, I, and it's mainly cuz like I get a lot of, I get lot out of it of just like from teaching people and kind of building goodwill and everything. And now it's like I'm in a position where I could definitely monetize pretty strongly if I want to. And But a lot of people think that like, Okay, once you're at 5,000 followers, you can start like making a lot of money or whatever.

Right? And like most of the time that's not gonna happen, right? You need to spend, you need to spend a significant amount of time doing this because you love it . Right. Not because like you're gonna be making money from it. Right? and I think like if you can spend that time generating that goodwill and generating that brand and building it up, then you can get to that point where like it can just be your income, right?

It can just be the piece that carries you on and you can get out of the nine to five journey. Right? And so, Yeah.

[00:51:03] Ken: Well, you know, it's interesting what you said, like you have to do it cuz you enjoy it. Like I did a quick analysis where I added up all of my YouTube earnings from everything. Like affiliates, sponsors ad revenue, all of that stuff. And I looked at how many hours I was put on YouTube. Yeah. And it was like, Yeah. Crap. Hourly wage.

[00:51:25] Zach: Yeah. You're like, you're like making like minimum wage . Three months.

[00:51:27] Ken: Three months. Right. And, you know, it won't, it won't be like that forever. I don't expect. But you know, I've been in this for I think three years now, something like that.

And, you know, trust me, it's, if, if I'm looking at the numbers, the profit motivation is, is, is not there. I mean, obviously I understand that there is long term upside and so I think about that, but it's just a, an interesting thing to think about is like, Okay, well if I turn that focus on value, the other stuff will take care of it.

If I inherently enjoy the value I create for other people, and like if I think about, like, look at the freaking value I've gotten right? I have a platform, I can share what I think and try to like, make an impact. Yeah. I have more friends that are like meaningful to me definitely than I've ever had in my entire life.

Right. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. That I can talk to consistently that can get feedback on that, like enriching my life. And that, that to me is like mind blowing that, that through just like making silly videos on the internet, I've been able to get so much,

[00:52:32] Zach: such a new life, right? You just made a brand new life for yourself.

Right? And like you can, you can do so much interesting stuff that way. Like, and like all the, all the kind of the unexpected kind of benefits of doing these things. And cuz it's like, that's the part about it that like, I find interesting about like, kind of like the like kind of the income growth curve is, it's a different curve, right?

Whereas like when you were working a job, it's more of like a line that kind of keeps going up, but kind of more slowly. And then like for like a YouTube content thing, it's like really, really flat for a long time and then it kind of like goes more and then it kind of hockey sticks up, right? And it's like not quite, it's not like a linear, like 5% raise here, 10% raise here.

It's like one year might be 300% or something like that, right? Depending on what, what ends up landing and like what I literally,

[00:53:19] Ken: I think. Doubled my income from YouTube. The first three years. Yeah. Like each year it's doubled. Wow. And I mean, it's still not like, Yeah, it's not even stiffing like the define income still, but it's like, Oh, like, Oh, like, yeah.

You know, what job have I ever had that I got more than like a 10% raise at one time.

[00:53:38] Zach: Yeah. Right. Yeah. It's, and, and if you think about it, like from the perspective of like, Okay, if it's doubled, if, if that trajectory continues, you know, if you, if if it not looking like it will this dude, but who knows?

But if it is, if it doubles like, like two or three more times, then like, you're good. I mean, then you're, then you're like Mr. Beast at that point, dude, Right. Exactly.

[00:54:02] Ken: Yeah. You know, I also, it, it's interesting across the various platform, like LinkedIn is tough for monetization. But you know, you have such a, a large brand, you have these, you off, you have a YouTube channel that has.

Almost 10,000 subscribers with five videos. Yeah, exactly. it's so cool that you can create this network effect across platforms. And I'm excited to see what the future holds for you after you've been even more inspired by this trip. Yes.

[00:54:30] Zach: Oh yeah. Feeling it, feeling it, feeling it real good.

Like, and yeah, that's gonna be, there's gonna be so much, and I already have all these more fresh ideas like spinning in my head of like all these different like, ideas of. Kind of like courses and educational content and like community building and like, that's the other thing I got a really good kind of picture into is like how these things are kind of done, right?

Cause community building is definitely one, like a, like a discord, slack group or whatever of just like, like-minded people talking. That's definitely, that's a, that's definitely a product idea that I think is really powerful. Right? Especially if you can get, like, cuz that's one of the, one of, one of my goals as a creator I feel is like building a community where like it's not just like all of these nodes connected to me, but then these nodes connect to each other.

Right? And then you can build like kind of a network graph. Right? And that's how like, they like a bunch of people meeting and teaching each other through me. That would be ideal cuz that's scalable, right? That's not. My time always. Right? Because I've not wanted, because there's no way, if you have a million followers or a hundred thousand followers, there's no way you can give all of them your time.

Right. Or at least on one on one basis or whatever. Or even on a group basis, right? it's challenging, right? But like, that's where if you can kind of set up a culture of learning and you attract the right people, then you can build these cool communities where like you have this crazy impact that is, that, that is almost out, like, it's so crazy because it's like it's impact that is really positive, but it's also kind of outside of your control, but it is inside of your control.

But in a very, like, like systemic level, right? And like, cuz you need to, your brand needs to attract the right people that then can connect to each other. And it's one of those things that I'm like, how, like if you ask people like, Okay, how do you do that? It. I don't know. It's, it, it's a, it's an interesting question and an interesting thing that I've been thinking about a lot.

[00:56:28] Ken: Yeah. I mean, it's a really fun challenge. I think scale is constantly what is on my mind as I continue to, foolishly take on more than I can handle. Yeah. Right. And you know, this year I've, I tried to do probably too much where, you know, I still have do YouTube. I've kind of toned down videos just because I've been super busy with other stuff.

The podcast, this is probably the most important thing to me. I just like love talk, like, love talking to my friends on camera. Oh yeah, definitely. Definitely. But then, you know, you would learn media stuff like planning trips like this, my actual job, which is picking up a lot right now. And it's like, geez, I need to figure out how to scale things.

And reduce things at the same time. Like create the systems, but also create scale. You know that maybe that's probably one of those things that like you're always just working towards and you never actually achieve. Yeah. But it's been more clear now than ever in my life that like, wow, I need to dial back, but scale up at the same time.

And those two things sound like opposing forces, but they don't necessarily have to be immediate. Right?

[00:57:43] Zach: Well, especially if you put yourself into the, like, because if you put yourself into the highest leveraged situation that you can, right? Where like you, like every minute of your time is spent on the most important critical pieces of the mission, but then the other pieces that are like, you can trust someone to do it 70% as well as you, then those pieces you can pass off.

Right? You can delegate and, Yeah. I need to, I need to do that. Like one, one of the things that I need to do and I need to find like this right person is like, because it's something that like, I feel is like such a perplexing problem cuz like, so on LinkedIn, right? Like dms on LinkedIn are just like

[00:58:25] Ken: the messaging system is like criminal.

[00:58:28] Zach: it's criminal. And then like, if, if you have a large following, it's like, it's just, it's broken. Cuz like, sometimes I'll even get messages from like, people who I really care about and they'll message me on LinkedIn and then it's like, it just falls to the bottom right? It falls into the freaking C of D dms, right?

Yeah. And it's like, and then I feel like a jerk cuz I'm like, Oh yeah, I dropped, I miss that message. And I'm like, so I know I need to like manage that better. I know that like, there's this someone I follow named Leah Turner, the way that she does LinkedIn is amazing. Like, she has like these assistants and people that like, manage different aspects of like the, like LinkedIn like process of like dms, comments, all that different, all those different things.

And like, You can, cuz I know like as I, as I build up more like product offerings, this will be more important. Right now it's not as important because like, I don't have, like, I can talk with people and get their feedback, but that's not as valuable as like, if I can make a sale or if I can make a sale, then that's something that would be cool.

Cuz if I can get inbound, inbound sales, like that's literally like the easiest sale. Right? Because it's like they're coming to you asking you for like, what, what, what they should learn. It's like, and if you have, if you have the solutions for them, then that's, Yeah, that's, You can make a lot of sales that way.

Right?

[00:59:42] Ken: Yeah, dude. Well, yeah. Incredible. I, you know, I think I'm really excited to see where things scale up to you. I'm excited for you to have some actual offerings, some inbound stuff coming up here.

[00:59:55] Zach: Oh yeah. Exciting.

[00:59:57] Ken: Those are really all the questions I had. Thank you so much.

[00:59:59] Zach: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Thank you for having here.

[01:00:01] Ken: Anything to add anything to end with?

[01:00:03] Zach: We need to do a lot more of these meetups. Like I, these meetups are really inspiring and like, I'm really excited to, you know, the people who weren't able to make it this time. Hopefully they can make it to the next one.

Cause like, these are, these are really, really good. They're really, really good.

[01:00:15] Ken: We'll use that as propaganda.

[01:00:17] Zach: Yes, for sure. For sure. Like, make this little YouTube short. Right. And then just like, send it to everybody. Be like, shame them. Like you gotta be on the next one.

[01:00:25] Ken: Amazing. Yeah. Shooting for two a year. And you know, hopefully they continue to continue to get better. Hopefully we continue to bring in awesome sponsors, like Bright Data.

[01:00:35] Zach: Oh yeah.

[01:00:36] Ken: Who made this one possible.

[01:00:38] Zach: Awesome.

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